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Friday, November 06, 2009

Health Reform Showdown | Will It Pass?


Anonymous said...

Do we really want or need another 110 new bureaucracies? That is what is included in this rediculous "Health" bill. Is this how OBAMA is going to add new jobs? We lost another 200,000 jobs last week. Wow OBAMA really has a plan doesn't he? While your at it if you are a loyal Republican or even a independent please look log and hard at your AARP organization. If you investigate it you will find it is an arm of the Democratic party and it stands to gain from the current health care bill. Maybe you want to reconsider your membership as there are alternatives.

Anonymous said...

2010 is right around the corner. "We the People" need to make our voices heard to all those elected, but do not support Our beliefs!!!

shawn said...

This 'train' started long before President Obama took his place in office. To blame him for it is just ludicrous. Yes it will take long to slow down. But he is doing things, some right, some wrong, to try to slow it down.

What I don't understand is why people won't give it some time. In a country as great as ours in both population and economics, there is no way that the recovery doesn't take time. The past is proof of that.

As far as Health Care Reform goes. I am covered through work. I am very thankful for that. However through no fault of my employer, I am spending much more out of pocket than I have in the past. Yes the care is excellent and I am thankful for it, but at the same time, my out of pocket for the year is roughly 30% higher than in the past for less instances of need. That just seems wrong.

I am a lifelong Democrat, and will give our President time to try, with the help of our representatives and senators, to get this under control. To that end, for me personally, I am more angry at both Houses of Congress. They are the ones that are 'playing' with our futures.

Anonymous said...

No what you don't understand is your wonderful president is trying to crash the economy. When are you all going to understand that the banking crisis was created by our goverment and when that failed they started to work on the health care you cant believe that obama wants to return us to a strong free market system. He is a marxist and wants socialism to be our governing body look around him the communications director looks up to mao! no man wake up comrade unless you start doing your homework and start learning you will fall.

Anonymous said...

shawn in the words of bevis and butthead " ahhhhh your a dumbass' anyone disagree?

Anonymous said...

I went down to the DMV to get my child a State ID. After calling ahead of time and going over the documentation needed over the telephone I went down to the DMV. I was informed at the DMV, after waiting in line, that the documentation I brought was not sufficient, even though I brought what I was explicitly told to bring when I called not an hour earlier.

And you want these fools in charge of health care?

shawn said...

The DMV thing would suck.

It's kind of like going to the emergency room with a family member. Handing over your insurance card. Getting her all fixed up. Paying a copay. Opening an envelope from your insurance carrier 1 week later to find that you have been charged $467.39 for the visit that you expected to only pay a $100.00 copay for.

Yours cost you a little time and gas.

Mine cost me 2 weeks of groceries.

I guess they are the same...

Anonymous said...

that is total bullshit they cannot raise a co-pay it's not legal and if you didn't look into it fully before you got the service then you are the dumb-ass oh yeah your a democrat so you think we are dumb enough to believe your bull that's right!

shawn said...

Wait. What? Look into it before I went?

Hmmm. Yeah. That makes sense. Hold on a second hun. I have to read the policy before we go to make sure that everything they are going to do is covered. And then when we get there, I will need to stand in the emergency room with you to make sure that all of the things they do to you are covered, and if it isn't then I will need to deny them from fixing that part, doing that service or giving you that bandage or piece of equipment.

Your right. I will download the documents for my policies to my notebook, and carry them with me and each step of the way make sure that the hospital doesn't do anything that isn't covered without my explicit permission, which of course, I will give because after all, it is my family member that I'm trying to take care of.

Thanks for the tip.

By the way. The cost was mostly incurred for a pair of crutches that she needed in order to walk out of the hospital. Go figure. And when I called the insurance company, they were very courteous in their explanation. And I admit, I did ask if, when she was done with them, and able to walk on her own without them, if I returned them, would I get a credit or a rebate but that answer was no. So. If she or one of my kids breaks something in the future, I will be sure to stop at home on the way to the hospital and pick them up so I have them with me when we go!

A total bill of $1987.00 for a fractured big toe. Yep. That makes sense.

Anonymous said...

Shawn, you are not alone. I agree with your reasoning. Some people on here are so stuck in the forest of politics that they cannot see the trees. I have experienced both Medicare and VA medical treatments and could not be happier with these government run plans. Granted, nothing is perfect and without needing improvement but nothing should stay the same for the only reason that "this is the way its always been done?.

Anonymous said...

Sorry but I had enough experience with the H1N1 vaccine - oh yeah I could not get one for my children. Another fine example of Government incompetence.

Anonymous said...

11:23 am


shawn said...

I'll sit back after this one.

Thank you Anonymous. (This gets pretty confusing with everyone all named the same...!)

And Anonymous, I understand your frustration. The Government was given information by the people that manufacture the H1N1 vaccine. And that was unfortunately an overly optimistic report from them. As such, the Government gave us the information that they were given.

And as a side note, it is just about the same as the Mainstream Media (from both ends of the spectrum) offering their views or opinions on the politics of our country at this point. Some of us tend to believe everything they say as well, even if it is wrong.

Anonymous said...

And Anonymous, I understand your frustration. The Government was given information by the people that manufacture the H1N1 vaccine. And that was unfortunately an overly optimistic report from them. As such, the Government gave us the information that they were given.

Please answer this question, how old are you and what do you do for a living. It is relevant to my response.

Now let me state something very clearly for you. I work in a support capacity for National Security.

If I were to lay this lame ass excuse on my superior I would be demoted, terminated - period, end of story.

I have also worked in the private sector in the non-touchy feely professions out there, anyone using this line of logic would be terminated - period.

There is something called due diligence. The Government believed the manufacturers? If that is true is it incompetence of the highest measure. Where were the financial penalties in the contract, the intermediate check points, the safe guards that are well established in both the private and public sector? Do you mean to try and tell me they do not exist?

This is an example of Government incompetence - period! We have to tolerate the DMV and SSA because we have no choice. For years we had to tolerate the post office, but guess what faxes and e-mail has given us a choice and people are voting with their feet. You get socialized medicine or any other Government program and we the people will suffer as we always do under a bureaucracy that is unresponsive and unaccountable to we the people.

shawn said...

I learned something new that allows me to respond directly.

To Anonymous 3:53.

That was two questions. 51. And I am a Business Analyst. Yep. That's what I do.

Now. You are right. It is a lame ass excuse. It's like Comcast. "Oh. We'll be there between 8 and 12. Then they show up at 2. Yeah. It's not as critical as a vaccine. I get that.

Please accept my apologies for this next paragraph. But there isn't much of anything more that proves both of our points.

As much as I support you for being in a National Security role, support or other, I would also say that during President Bush's Administration, we were told of the WMD's in Iraq and Vice-President Cheney's revelation that Iraq was helping and supporting the people that caused us harm on September 11th. Needless to say, the WMD's were gone, and there was unfortunately a lack of a connection of the Iraq's ever directly helping the people that shamelessly attacked our country.

I wish, during this particular phase of our history, that someone like you, with the thoughts that you have, would have been more closely involved in the decisions instead of whom, apparently, was feeding our President with the details that he received. Quite possibly we would only be in Afghanistan, and not in two wars, and more of our soldiers would be alive today. But we bought it. And now we live it.

Back to your statement. I hope that there were financial penalties. And by no means do I mean to tell you that they don't exist. Simply put, I gave a rationale, not unlike many, many others that have been presented, of what I have been able to ascertain from various media reports and what the administration has offered us. So I don't know the answers to your questions. And I am sorry that I didn't check in to them further before I posted.

We tolerate so very much. But it isn't just limited to Government. There isn't an industry or organization that is immune to having to be tolerated as well. I would love to give examples, but I believe that there is a character limit here, so it would most likely get cut off.

In closing. I thank you for your service. And because we live in the United States of America, we have the right to disagree, and in this case, we only seem to disagree on the extent, not the problem itself.

Anonymous said...

Shawn...let us get something straight, you appear to me a political hack, no offense meant, just an observation. I think Bush should have been impeached, I think he was among the worst Presidents in my lifetime, only to be eclipsed by Carter, Obama, and possibly Clinton.

Bush was son-of-a-bitch to call the Patriots who went down to defend this nations borders vigilantes. And this coming from a total wuss like him who was afraid to actually serve his country. And the so called Patriot Act is/was an abomination to liberty.

And WMD - get real. Bush wanted to invade IRAQ from the day he took office. No less a person then Paul O'Neil told us so very plainly. There is no need to do the "well Bush relied on..." no he didn't he was a lying son-of-bitch just like Obama. He wanted to go there and used any excuse he could, just like Obama.

Bush's mission was pretty clear. It was to attack Iraq and to open our borders, open them to millions of invaders and open us to world trade all because of his barely literate understanding of economic theory.

Obama's mission is very clear. It is to advance socialism. He is attempting to do this by instituting policy changes and then altering the voting demographic of this nation to make sure the policies will become a lexicon. Hence the reason they want illegal aliens counted as persons for Congressional apportionment.

But stop this Bush-Obama nonsense. they both have been train wrecks for this nation. Get it through your head - all Government has the potential for evil, and almost all Government is evil. It is liberty robbing, freedom killing entity that exist only to propagate itself.

You seem like you are capable of making intelligent arguments, but like I said you come across as a political hack. If you want to argue for Obama's socialist agenda, which it appears you do, then argue on the merits of what it can or cannot do for people. But this comparison nonsense, this blame Bush stuff is ridiculous.

Just argue your points on their own merit.

Lastly, I serve my country only under the auspice of the Patriot Act. I have been coerced into service, I did not volunteer. So while you are correct to thank anyone who willingly serves, my services have been compelled under the auspice of being necessary for National Security. Which is to say I had no choice in the matter. In the end it would have been nice to have been asked rather than so compelled.

It may surprise you, whom appear to be a bootlicker of the Government, to find out that your Government has forced honest men away from their family and friends in forced servitude to the Government.

I have no illusions about this nation, what it has become, or where it is headed.

So you are a business analyst? You are lucky you are not better at your craft or you might find yourself compelled to serve your nation also under those broad reaching powers Congress granted it in a time of panic.

I hope you mull over these words and truly see how blind you have become. Nothing personal but you simply have no idea what the stakes really are.

In closing, you are very polite. But like I said I smell a political hack with an agenda. If I am wrong I am sorry, but the tea leaves still read that way to me.

Anonymous said...

Lets see now. If we allow the government to completely take over our healthcare than we will never have to read or study any policy and we will get all the free medical care we need. Gee that would be great and that education I was supposed to get for nothing will be totally useless. Sooner or later our children won't even need the free education as everything will be handled by good ol OBMAMA. Horse Shit...get some gumption and take care of yourself You IDIOTS.

shawn said...

Anonymous 5:38

Damn. I wrote this all out, and hit the character limit.

I'll have to rework it.

I can say right now, however, that I am not a political hack. I am just a person that has his beliefs and just gets a little frustrated with some of the facts being distorted, in either direction, to advance ones agenda without really being correct.

I will confess, however, that I did appreciate your reply, though not the bootlicker comment. That, I am not.

I'll figure out a way to pair it down and get it here.


I love spirited yet polite debate!

Anonymous said...

Okay I recant the bootlicker comment; I still read the brand that way though.

Anonymous said...

btw part1 and part2 work to get your message across.

Anonymous said...


Maybe you should take some lessons from Shawn in politeness, you arrogant bastard.

Anonymous said...

the dude is right he is a bootlicker political hack, that is obvious enough

Anonymous said...





shawn said...

Thanks 9:47am. He's being politely passionate. And I totally understand that. I take no offense to his statements.

10:35am. Nope. I'm really not. As do you, I have a right to express my thoughts. That's what I am doing.

6:49pm. There are some that work very hard in their jobs, and still can't afford Health Care yet contribute to society as a whole. That, to me, seems unfair. It is not their fault. Sure. The moochers in society will suck some of this up, but that should not penalize those that are really trying to make ends meet.

5:38pm. Ok. I just don't want to trim this down, so, it has become a 2 part-er. It will be in the next 2 posts.

shawn said...

Anonymous 5:38.
Part 1

No offense taken.

Honestly, I used Wikipedia to get a definition of 'Political Hack' to make sure that what I thought it meant, it did. I find it wrong in my case.

I am very much true to my convictions and beliefs. I have no agenda. In fact, if anyone thinks that I am just speaking because I am a Democrat that voted for President Obama, and simply want his agenda's to be put forward, without merit, on the people of the United States without push back, then they would be wrong.

But I am one that believes that sooner or later, we need to give someone a chance. I believed, and still do, though not maybe as much as I did, that there was a genuine feeling by President Obama that he could help bring the country together as it was many many years ago. ‘Yes We Can’ is something I believe in, and would have had anyone started saying it. Maybe that’s what got me fired up in the first place. A belief in change. Hell. I rearrange my office twice a year because I need it to change.

Your President Bush facts are on target. Yet spending just a moment to offer my views:
I am certain that there were Patriots that went to protect our borders. I am also sure that there were vigilantes as well. These, in my view, are to separate and distinct groups. Patriots trying to do what’s right. Vigilantes to do whatever they can to cause chaos.

WMD. Remember that I was simply using the context of our discussion as a talking point. I believe that the son wanted to finish what the father started. But in context, those that don't agree with your or my idea of why, were certainly taken in by what they heard.

I don't believe that President Obama is a liar. I do think that President Bush ended up being one.

I certainly believe you are right on as to President Bush's economic theory's being, well, formed in the Land of Oz.

The socialism debate has me confused. We want socialism and we don't. We want the various retirement aspects of what the Government has to offer, yet we are currently pushing back on an addition to those programs. We currently pay for Health Care for all by having premiums, deductibles and cost rise to pay for the people that use emergency rooms as clinical offices. And it would be against the human nature, of most, to deny them those services. So why not just get it out on the table?

shawn said...

Part 2

I don't not support, or believe as a country, we should support illegal aliens receiving Health Care. I also do not support the costs of abortions on our backs either except in the most extreme of circumstances, which we don't need to go into here.

I did a quick search before I started writing this and was unable to find a fact to wrap my head around on the Congressional appointment argument. But maybe it's because I am expecting it to be in the wrong place.

But. On its face, it is hard to stop the President Obama-President Bush nonsense. It is the most recent available information to draw comparisons to. I don't, at this point, believe that President Obama is a train wreck. I certainly believe that the rest of the executive branches are at this point, and would so vote for term limits for them anytime they were presented.

All Government has the potential for evil - and - good. And. As we are able to write and share our thoughts and opinions, I guess this is one of the good parts. Certainly, there are bad parts. We can see them anytime we turn on the tube or hear them on the radio. Liberty and freedom were written into the Constitution. And we still have one of those, that we can fall back on at any point. Our forefathers gave us a tool, and it has always amazed me that since they could have had no idea what their country would grow into, that they were still able to write something that is as viable today, as it was then.

Hitting the socialist thing one more time. I think I would rather liken it to fair trade practices. I just want a fair shake at getting something that I pay for. I believe that in this case, it is more of an open market that needs, and in fact demands, more market competition. And if that were in place instead of a 'Public Option', then I would be all for it. But, even though my dad spent his life first working for Illinois Bell Telephone and then the companies that formed afterward, I believe, maybe wrongly, that breaking that monopoly was a good thing to do. It created competition and lowered the price to make a phone call. So figuring out a way to make the Health Care Industry open up their monopoly, to me, is a good thing. I’m all for making money. I have a small business of my own. But. Making – vs – Stealing. I personally see a difference.

I think, even though I do, on occasion use President Bush to fall back on, that I am trying to create points on their merits. But sometimes having an example helps get the point across.

I find your situation intriguing. Though I believe I understand why it is that you cannot go into further detail, I am still intrigued by your position, and how you got there. I presume that you enjoy your occupation, even though the way you have to do it now wouldn't have been your first choice.

Can't tell a lie. The bootlicker line had me a little worked up. But I got over it. I know what I am. I know my beliefs. And I know what is at stake if things don't change. I also believe that I know where we are headed as a nation, and would really like to see that direction change, for the better.

I feel, and have been rewarded for being, a fairly terrific business analyst. Maybe I am in the wrong industry to be 'recruited'. Or maybe it is because I am a 'business' analyst.

I certainly believe that there are things that we agree on, and things that we don’t. But again. I have no agenda. I just wanted to voice an opinion. It is mine, and mine alone. I appreciate your views, and can only hope that you can appreciate mine.

Have a great day and a great weekend!


shawn said...

Hey 5:38. Here is an attempt to list my thoughts, and why I think some parts of the bills that have been presented are good for the country. I hope that I have used examples to help profess their merits. They are very near and dear to me, as I am living them every day.

Eliminate ‘Pre-existing’ conditions.

I have one. I was paralyzed in 1974. I have since recovered though have suffered the lingering effects of that time in my life, ever since then. I have been able to be covered for things like stitches on a finger and flu’s in the past through Health Care as it is today. However. I am somewhat afraid that if I have a more life threatening problem, that due to my pre-existing condition, that it will end up not being covered and I, or more importantly, my family, will have to carry the costs of that treatment.

Small Business

I do have a small business. I work a full time job for various reasons. One of those is that when I tried to branch out on my own, I was unable to get Health Insurance and I have a family to support. My wife was working, but what was considered a part time job, at 30 hours per week, and therefore wasn’t able to take part in their Health Insurance. The premiums became more than my company could support, so lessening my dream, I went back to the regular work force.

Part-Time Job Seekers and Do-ers

Should be able to afford Health Care. It isn’t their fault, especially in this economy, that they can’t afford it. It’s either insurance or food on the table. My bet is they choose food. But why?


Children are our future. There must be some equitable way for them to be covered. The loss of any life, is a terrible thing. But to lose a child because of some health problem, is unfathomable. Sure. Maybe the parents made bad decisions, but that shouldn’t be a reason to punish the child.

Drug Prices

My mom died of cancer four and a half years ago. I remember being with her at the hospital when she was diagnosed. The attending physician gave her a prescription. On the way home, my brother and I went into the pharmacy to get that prescription. They filled it and brought it to the register. $1700 dollars. Even with insurance. I can’t imagine what other seniors in our society are going through to get their medications. My son has been diagnosed with ADHD. He’s a great kid. Smart and fun to be around. His medication is a monthly thing. We had been getting it at the local CVS. $40 co-pay. Recently, my wife, who also takes medication for a chronic back problem, dropped the prescription off at the Walmart. It became a $25 dollar co-pay. What I have learned from this experience is that I must shop around. My bad.

Senior Citizen Coverage

My father lives with us. He turned 79 this past October. He has an aversion to going to the doctor, but is fortunate enough to have an insurance plan through his pension. However. That insurance has changed considerably over the last 6 years and coverage versus what is was is drastically different. When the time comes that he has something seriously wrong, which I hope never happens, it is my belief that the way the insurance companies currently run things, it is possible that all he has will be sucked up into that care. It sometimes appears to me, that insurance companies have the ability to look into a person financials and know exactly what they have available to take. (ok. A conspiracy theory. Not at all based on fact.)

These are my highlights. I have more, but if these things could get worked out, then it seems to me that the rest might work themselves out in the long run. There is no perfect storm for health care. There will be those that continue to abuse the system, and those that will live within its rules. Some will keep what they want, and some won’t. It has never been proposed for this to be ‘free’ system for anyone, just more affordable. Choice is what has always made this nation great. Without choice, we have nothing, in my humble opinion.

Looking forward to your response, or any others...

Anonymous said...

Yep a hack.

shawn said...

Have to be clear on the definition of 'Political Hack'. So. Here are the ones that I could find... a politician who belongs to a small clique that controls a political party for private rather than public ends

I am not a politician. I am just a voter.

WikiPedia: A political hack is a negative term ascribed to a person who is part of the political party apparatus, but whose intentions are more aligned with victory than personal conviction.

Political hack may also be used by a political opponent in order to erode confidence or credentials of an opponent or his hired campaign help. Often used to demean well credentialed individuals for political purposes.

Though I am a Democrat, I believe that I have many disagreements with my party. Just not Health Care (other than it requiring some help). My intentions are to offer my views and read serious counter views that might or might not, change my mind.

So. I don't feel I fulfill any of the arguments of the term.

Anonymous said...

This is a sad, sad day for America...I am stunned...the country I loved is no more...


Anonymous said...

The healthcare bill that was passed is so watered down that it is hardly a reason to cheer.

What this country needs is MEDICARE FOR ALL or in other words, single payer universal healthcare.

Anonymous said...

The Bill will never make it pass the Senate.

Anonymous said...

"the country I loved is no more..."

Your image of the country that you loved involves over half of all personal bankruptcies being due to medical expenses?

I'm glad we live in a different country now, then.